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[–]Vitalstatistix 21 points22 points ago

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Probably the best summary I've read so far. One thing that a lot of posters keep omitting from their theories is how brilliant the Doctor is at deductions. Example--he sends Rory down after River despite her saying everything was all clear. He seems to know enough about his companion friends that even the slightest change in their mannerisms/attitude is enough for him to learn a slew of information.

[–]cole1114 12 points13 points ago

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Especially since it was fairly obvious she had been running very hard to get back to the surface.

[–]Vitalstatistix 15 points16 points ago

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Yeah. One thing I haven't quite figured out yet is why none of the characters have screamed when they first saw a Silent. I mean shit, even if they were a bunch of cuddly kittens, if I wasn't expecting to see something and it just popped out of nowhere I'd probably let out a startled yell.

[–]cole1114 14 points15 points ago

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Especially since it's a fucking Slender Man.

[–]amaurer 7 points8 points ago

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Mind control, perhaps? They force you to be silent? But then Amy was able to talk to the one in the bathroom, which was odd.

[–]insllvn 7 points8 points ago

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I don't think he is working with the others.

[–]amaurer 7 points8 points ago

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Do you think he's a rogue Silent? But then why kill Joy?

[–]respiteSmith 41 points42 points ago

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He's a killjoy.

[–]Tarpo76 13 points14 points ago

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I hate you

[–]OchoboboTennant 1 point2 points ago

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No you don't.

[–]insllvn 5 points6 points ago

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The Silent appears to draw in the electricity of the room and then use it to kill Joy while its not-mouth opens wider and wider. Then it talks. I don't think it could before.

[–]kyzf42Tom Baker 0 points1 point ago

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Great observation, and the first hint I've seen as to why they're called the Silence.

[–]jfh2112Tennant 4 points5 points ago

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I think it absorbed the ability to speak from Joy.

[–]JeddHampton 3 points4 points ago

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He didn't say anything until after he killed her... he did scream of sorts during the process...

Maybe he can't speak unless he 'splodes someone.

[–]adamant2009Eccleston 0 points1 point ago

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I agree. The Silence seem insistent on trapping the Doctor, as far as I can tell, and it wouldn't be in their best interest to have him alerted as to their presence.

"What he must know, and what he must never know."

I think this line is important, probably because it's referring to something we haven't quite stitched together yet. I'm not convinced it's referring entirely to his death. But if it is, if he must never know, why tell him? I'm guessing rogue Silent too.

[–]insllvn 2 points3 points ago

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I've been kicking this around in my head for a bit now. How does the Silent in the bathroom in 1969 know what happened to the Doctor in 2011 at the beach? They are building a TARDIS, but it isn't done yet. What if it is one thing, with two descriptions? What the Doctor needs to know and what he can never know, for example about the existence of a race of aliens that leave behind no memories when they leave your frame of view? Amy's memory is special, she remembered the duck pond even without its ducks and she remembered the Doctor back from the Time Vortex or whatever and she also seems to hold on to the Silents for the longest. She struggles to remember something she must tell the Doctor.

[–]Vitalstatistix 1 point2 points ago

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What if it is one thing, with two descriptions? What the Doctor needs to know and what he can never know

This is how I've been reading it as well.

[–]eaturbrainzSilence 1 point2 points ago

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"What he must know, and what he must never know."

But that's definitely referring to Amy telling him his personal future. That's pretty much the only thing she would already know ("how do you know about that?") that the Doctor mustn't.

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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that's definitely referring to Amy telling him his personal future.

Is it? How does the Silent in the bathroom in 1969 know what happened to the Doctor in 2011 at the beach? They are building a TARDIS, but it isn't done yet.

[–]mckatzeK-9 0 points1 point ago

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They do have some kind of funky mind control powers going on.

[–]adamant2009Eccleston 0 points1 point ago

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Thus far. Remember, this is a narrative that has stretched a full season without giving us the opportunity to properly work it out. Lots of foreshadowing but very, very few answers. My thought is, "What he must know" and "what he must never know" refer to two different things, one of which we may or may not even be aware of yet.

And keep in mind, these are all speculation of epic proportions. I like outlandish speculation, it keeps my imagination-organ rumbling.

[–]PinkysAvenger 0 points1 point ago

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OMG shes preggers with the doctors kid

[–]falling_sideways 0 points1 point ago

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It's what he should never know from his companion's point of view as it's his future.

[–]ajmc93 0 points1 point ago

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Then why did Amy tell him "[she's] pregnant", if not supposed to tell him he was going to die?

[–]kyzf42Tom Baker 1 point2 points ago

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It seemed to be waiting for her. It needed to talk to her.

[–]ThatFuh_Qr 2 points3 points ago

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I'm pretty sure they're getting used to it by now

[–]Vitalstatistix 0 points1 point ago

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Not sure you can ever be used to incredibly creepy aliens just popping out of nowhere. Hell I jumped and I'm just watching it on TV.

[–]LucidPrayer 0 points1 point ago

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I'm sure if they didn't react it was do it being use to it.
But ... I still 'jump' every time movies make a 'scream/surprise' moment in a thriller.

[–]MarowakTARDIS 1 point2 points ago

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I was a bit angry when Rory saw The Silence in the tunnel but didn't shout out. He turned away to tell River but obviously, he forgets that he saw them. I was all whaaaaat.

True story.

[–]jfh2112Tennant 0 points1 point ago

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To be fair, Amy did that in the bathroom. She shut the door, turned around, and let out a yelp when she saw the Silent. I suppose the other companions are a bit harder to startle. :)

[–]bearmace 0 points1 point ago

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Deer in the headlights plus monsters are not that out of the ordinary I imagine. Either someone finally screaming or the phone picture (I think the phone picture) is how they'll finally figure it out.

[–]NeilyG 0 points1 point ago

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Well they are called the silent.

[–]3gv 12 points13 points ago

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You're good. I'm not saying you're right... but you are very good.

[–]serinity 14 points15 points ago*

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I like your line of thought about faking his death (or not so faking) to prevent the Silence from activating their TARDIS (edit: or achieving some other goal).

I'm not convinced that what the Silent wants Amy to tell the Doctor concerns his death. When the Silent tells Amy to tell the Doctor what he must know and must not know, she responds, "How do you know about that?" But she observed a Silent watching them at the picnic, so she knows it knows about the Doctor's death. Then, the next chance she gets, she tells the Doctor something "really important" -- that she's pregnant. WHY her pregnancy would be important to the Doctor or the Silence, I have no idea, but that seemed to be what it was alluding to, based on Amy's reactions.

Interestingly, I don't think that Rory knows about the pregnancy. As much as he worries about Amy's safety, I don't think he'd let her anywhere near the Doctor if he knew she was pregnant. If that assumption is correct, it means that she told the Doctor before Rory.

[–]admiral-zombie 11 points12 points ago

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Based on the previews for the next episode, i think the pregnancy thing isn't real. The doctor mentions the silence being able to influence minds or something along those lines, and the pregnancy doesn't make much sense.

[–]scarlettenoirTennant 18 points19 points ago

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I want to add to this; it seems the companions get physically ill every time they 'forget' about the Silent. So it would make sense for Amy to either think she is pregnant, or for the Silent to have influenced that train of thought as an explanation for why she keeps grabbing her stomach and becoming ill.

[–]serinity 4 points5 points ago

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That's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered. The pregnancy announcement does come out of nowhere.

[–]zutroyTARDIS 8 points9 points ago

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Not to mention, she was drinking wine at the picnic. I doubt she'd do that knowing she was pregnant.

[–]masturbating_fetuses 7 points8 points ago

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They've changed the recommendations and it's perfectly fine for pregnant women to have a glass or two of wine occasionally.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]masturbating_fetuses 8 points9 points ago

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502 it went through, 504 try once more.

And nope. Already is one.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]cole1114 0 points1 point ago

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I didn't know you could delete a comment and not have those big DELETED gray boxes show up.

[–]LengullSilence 4 points5 points ago

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Only if no one has commented on it yet. If there are comments below yours, it does it so that their comments are still there.

[–]serinity 6 points7 points ago

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I'm not sure. If I remember correctly, Moffat says in the latest Confidential episode something along the lines of, "It all comes back to that pregnancy." It could be a red herring, though.

[–]kyzf42Tom Baker 0 points1 point ago

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If that's true, could it be a call back to Amy's Choice? Is this another extended dream like it was then, or something similar but more insidious?

[–]3gv 4 points5 points ago

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The picnic scene is in 2011 and the bathroom scene is 1969. If the Silence can already time travel, they wouldn't need to use the Doctor to achieve time travel.

[–]serinity 2 points3 points ago

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That's true -- if the Silence time-traveled to 2011. It may be that they're just still around in our time.

[–]3gv 6 points7 points ago

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Sorry! My comment was a bit vague, I was responding to

she observed a Silent watching them at the picnic, so she knows it knows about the Doctor's death

The Silence in 1969 couldn't know about the events in 2011 without time travel. Unless there's something psychic or wibbly wobbly about them we don't know yet.

[–]PinkysAvenger 4 points5 points ago

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well, it knew joy and amy's names, and it can talk without a mouth. im pretty sure they're psychic.

[–]serinity 0 points1 point ago

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Hmm, fair point! :)

[–]LowerCasealexTennant 0 points1 point ago

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Not only that, River later says that she feels sick, so does that mean she is pregnant too? I don't think so, I have a feeling that the silence do something to you to make you think something else to prioritize forgetting them.

[–]kyzf42Tom Baker 0 points1 point ago

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!!!
River and the Doctor haven't hooked up yet ... from our perspective. In River's timeline her hinted-at romance with the Doctor has already played out... She could very well be pregnant. ... !

[–]JeddHampton 0 points1 point ago

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River and Amy have a very similar reaction after seeing the Silence. They grab their stomach and bend a bit.

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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The Silents are trying to build a TARDIS (or so it seems), which would be an odd hobby for people who could already travel or send information through time, especially given the scale of what can go wrong when a TARDIS explodes. This could go a number of different ways, but whatever happens, remember this: the Doctor was shot in 2011 and Amy received her instructions to tell him "what he needs to know and what he can never know" in 1969. My interpretation of that scene runs differently. I think Amy makes of it that he needs to know she is pregnant and can never know he died in 2011 on the beach. I think that Silent is trying to get Amy to tell the Doctor about the Silence. It is the same thing, the thing he needs to know but can never remember.

[–]jrae316 3 points4 points ago

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I like this. she was told to tell him what he must know, then she did the whole "there's something I need to tell you...struggle struggle... im pregnant!" never though of it that way until u prompted, but i like it

[–]mindshadowTARDIS 0 points1 point ago

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Could be that the baby is the Doctor's.

EDIT: And to keep going with this, maybe the baby is River Song. River is the child in the suit at the end of the Impossible Astronaut (as a child), which is where they first meet, and she's in an astronaut's suite when she kills him (as an older River) and that's why she's in prison.

[–]Vitalstatistix 17 points18 points ago

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It's possible, but I really doubt the writer's would have her call him "sweetie" all the time and say innuendos like "oh I'm a screamer" to him if they were writing her in as his daughter. That'd be...very weird.

[–]3gv 5 points6 points ago

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Yes. Sexual tension with one's child is 'a bit' far-fetched. Also, it's a suit; there's no guarantee the child, or even the same person, is in the suit in 2011. River is in prison at the beginning of the episode, so she's already killed whoever she killed. I think it's safe to say she would remember being in an astronaut suit in a lake and killing the Doctor.

[–]insllvn 2 points3 points ago

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Which is why she says "Of course not" after emptying her gun at the astronaut to no effect. She remembers not getting shot after killing the Doctor. Everything that happens in the scene after that can be explained as the trauma of reliving the moment when you killed the man you loved or hoping the Doctor had brought her there to show her that it was all a trick the first time (from her perspective) round.

[–]3gv 1 point2 points ago

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Valid theory.

I just don't believe River kills the Doctor. Who would claim the authority to imprison a Time Lord murderer? In Flesh and Stone, her captors meet The Doctor; I think they would have a few questions if the man she killed was present.
Particularly after her revelation in the premier about her love for the Doctor, I think it's likely that when she kills a man that it is one of her first meetings with the Doctor. The Doctor is obviously against killing but knows that her future is important to his past.

[–]AllisonaxeCyberperson 0 points1 point ago

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Who would claim the authority to imprison a Time Lord murderer?

I was wondering that myself. we still haven't exactly been told where her prison is or who it is that is her captors... I have wondered if its related to Shadow Proclamation (though I'll be honest: my interest on that piqued when the doctor actually went there in person in The Stolen Earth and i've been wanting another story dealing with that ever since... and been a bit saddened that we haven't gotten it yet.

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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Who would claim the authority to imprison a Time Lord murderer?

Good point, although my first guess would be the Time Agency, which as I recall is contemporaneous with the times we have seen River in prison (if that means anything to a Time Agency). They, too, would understand the danger of telling the Doctor about his own future and so not mention it on the Byzantium. Still, what hangs in my mind now is this: River sacrifices herself in the library. When she does so, she implies that the Doctor now she understood that the Doctor forgave her for her past because of what he knew in her future, ie the sacrifice. This doesn't quite fit with it being his own death. How would he know to forgive her for it? I think I need to re-watch the Silence in the Library. Hey, that's a weird title come to think of it...

[–]PinkysAvenger 0 points1 point ago

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But if she suddenly realised that this was where and when she killed the doctor, why would she draw the gun in the first place? guilt-stricken paradox-causing suicide?

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, I keep coming up with reasons it wasn't River. There's something she says in Silence in the Library that implies the Doctor knew her crimes, which raises all sorts of problems if it was her in the astronaut suit.

[–]kaosjester 0 points1 point ago

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I keep hearing this argument and it continuously bothers me. Her "Of course not" seems much more of a, "Yeah, of course the bullets don't work" as opposed to "of course that didn't work, lol, I totally remember being there." How could he ask his wife to kill him?

[–]insllvn 1 point2 points ago

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He didn't ask. It really messed her up to meet him the way she did and at one point she killed him over it. Then she met him again and got to know him better and felt remorse. Finally, she died to save others in the library, telling the Doctor the most essential facts of her ultimate goodness. Here's the kicker though, she implies in the library that he forgave her for what she was and did in the past because he knew of her future sacrifice. This doesn't work if she killed him, unless he does eventually find out that he dies in advance.

[–]kaosjester 0 points1 point ago

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I see where you're coming from and it's a valid argument. But if this is all the case, why kill him in front of a lake in 1969 in an Apollo astronaut suit? The situation just seems way too far-fetched for it to plausibly be her.

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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I agree with you actually. I've been bouncing it round the old noggin and I think River being in the suit is what we are supposed to think so, naturally, that can't be it.

[–]kaosjester 1 point2 points ago

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I think that River doesn't kill the doctor. At all. And I don't think she does exactly because it's been hinted that she does. Moffat isn't the kind of guy to broadcast that kind of information loud and clear. And he never gives such serious plot developments up-front.

This raises an interesting question for me: who did she kill? The greatest man she ever knew - who has she known that's greater than the Doctor?

[–]mindshadowTARDIS 0 points1 point ago

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Well, River is clever, it may be just her way of throwing the Doctor off since he may be thinking the same thing as you ("My daughter would never use innuendo at me").

Or she has daddy issues.

[–]Vitalstatistix 1 point2 points ago

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Seems like a stretch...

[–]jrae316 2 points3 points ago

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agreed. it could be a possibility, but i don't think the BBC'd go there

[–]serinity 3 points4 points ago

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If River is Amy's child (a river from a pond, haha!) then having pregnant Amy and adult River together would be a paradox, which could have some interesting ramifications.

As for the baby being the Doctor's, I have a difficult time imagining the writers going for that, given that Amy is married to Rory now and the Doctor fought off her advances throughout series 5. Interesting possibility, though.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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That's assuming that the Doctor even can reproduce with humans. He is a different species, after all.

[–]serinity 0 points1 point ago

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Good point. They did manage to make a hybrid human/Time Lord in The Doctor's Daughter, but that was a cloning process rather than reproduction. Who knows?

[–]GeorgeMTO 0 points1 point ago

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Yet if we consider the Eighth Doctor telemovie to be canon (no reason not to), he himself is half human. So possibly The Doctor is a test tube baby, or Time Lords can reproduce with humans. And as half/half he's more likely to be able to reproduce with humans.

I dislike the theory (in my mind the pregnancy is merely a symptom of The Silence) but if we are discussing possibilities we should consider prior evidence.

[–]InquisitrTennant 2 points3 points ago

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It's only a paradox if that somehow prevents River from being born.

[–]3gv 1 point2 points ago

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I can say with full confidence that would definitely create a universe-ending paradox.

It is funny to think about though: if River is Amy's child, she created herself. River told the Doctor he'd one day be able to open the TARDIS by snapping his fingers and that's exactly what he did to impress Amy to get into the TARDIS in the first place...

[–]serinity 0 points1 point ago

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Fair enough. There were warnings in Father's Day about Rose and baby Rose being together, but only if they touched. As far as we can tell in this season, no baby will be born anytime soon -- though there was a glimpse of a crib in the episode 2 preview.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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and if rose and her dad were able to interact paradox-free, then why couldn't river and her mother (amy)?

[–]serinity 0 points1 point ago

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It's really more a concern between River and unborn River.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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hadn't thought of that, let hopes she's not involved in the birthing process then

[–]mweathr 0 points1 point ago

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As for the baby being the Doctor's, I have a difficult time imagining the writers going for that, given that Amy is married to Rory now and the Doctor fought off her advances throughout series 5.

Of course the baby is the Doctor's. Rory is a robot, and she has no other romantic interests. It probably happened when Rory didn't exist. Maybe the Doctor gave her a pity fuck.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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didn't the whole rory=robot get rewritten? from my understanding, when the Tardis exploded at the end of s5 the doctor was erased from history, meaning that rory never became a robot. i know the doctor came back due to amy's memories, but i'm not convince that rory regressed to his robot self.

[–]mweathr 0 points1 point ago

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If he never became a robot, he wouldn't remember being a robot But he does remember, thus it still happened.

If it didn't happen he wouldn't remember, just like Amy didn't remember him when he didn't exist.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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I understand that, i just don't think it's true. its a perfectly valid arguement, i just think that when he suddenly got back his robot memories he didn't go back to being a robot - i think they would have a bigger deal of it at the time, or they'd have mentioned it since or something. though maybe at somepoint in the next few episodes there'll be a big climax where they have no weapon against something bad and the doctor presses a button on rory's ear and fires the gun :D

[–]kaitthegreatEccleston 0 points1 point ago

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Rory isn't a robot anymore - that timeline was erased. He's human again from the wedding scene at the end of series 5 on.

[–]serinity 0 points1 point ago

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Is Rory still an Auton? The universe reset itself after The Big Bang; I just assumed that Rory was back to being human again.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the very first time the Doctor and River met was at the Library in Tennant's reign. This is the first time they meet and it's the last time she sees him, which squares totally with River's little speech to Amy about how she always meets him and he knows her a little less each time.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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i'm fairly certain this is the case, but (due to the wibblywobblyness of it all) i think that it should be more that "the first time the doctor met river was in the library", not that "the first time they met was...". the first time river meets the doctor will be a whole new event, which we still havent seen (unless the child is river)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Quite right, that is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[–]theelfman 0 points1 point ago

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Well, I believe it's the first time that the Doctor meets River, but the last time she meets him. He didn't recognize her at all in the Library and yes it killed her.

[–]Henipah 1 point2 points ago

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I don't think the girl is just a little girl: She can communicate without a phone, she survives being shot, she moves around like an adult in that suit which couldn't be easy. I think it's something along the lines of the decoys in the lodger (please help me...). Plus she describes the spaceman moving around then appears inside it.

[–]ronsturgill 0 points1 point ago

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The baby isn't the doctors, but it is River.

[–]ronsturgill 0 points1 point ago

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oh, and she wasn't so little when she pulled the trigger.

[–]Atman00 6 points7 points ago

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I'm not convinced that the Silents need him to be a pilot.

In the Lodger, the ship was abandoned. It was the computer system that was looking for a suitable pilot, because the actual crew (presumably a crew of Silents) was gone. Where they were at that moment is probably something this season will address.

And remember, if the Doctor's hand had touched that control panel, it would have blown up the solar system. So not the best plan on the part of the Silents.

[–]Sam-I-Am-Not 2 points3 points ago

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I agree that they won't rehash the old search for a pilot gimick, but I think OP is on to something with the Silents needing the Doctor. I remember reading somewhere that we'd learn about the Silence as "a species" and "their needs." I wonder if they need the Doctor for something more basic -- reproduction, survival, ability to talk, maybe they're trapped by their own memory-wiping ability.

[–]GretalRabbitTom Baker 3 points4 points ago

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Has the Dr actually seen one yet? Maybe he's the only one who can remember them.

[–]Sam-I-Am-Not 14 points15 points ago

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Amy seems pretty good at remembering them, and all of Series 5 was basically preparing her to remember things she shouldn't. We haven't seen any tally's on the Doctor, have we?

[–]LengullSilence 9 points10 points ago

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Holy crap I didn't even realize yet that all last season was demonstrating how Amy was different when it came to memories. I didn't even think that the crack would have changed the way she thinks like that other than letting her remember the Doctor. Good call.

[–]aloofus 0 points1 point ago

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This works with something else I've been thinking about regarding the silents and Amy. Remember the old post that showed that Amy has stairs in her house going to a floor that isn't actually there? (You can see it in episode one, they're on the second floor of a two story building, with stairs leading right up to a ceiling) Also, I was wondering why anything would want to erase a universe that they were a part of.

My thought is that they were in Amy's house, and used the crack to bring her some of this memory power, and drew the TARDIS to her specifically (they can make it blow up and speak from inside it, they could make it land somewhere, especially when he wasn't really steering), and that they "erased" the universe knowing that the doctor would reboot it.

As for why, considering the inability to remember them, it seems like they're still not completely back in the universe, so maybe they were completely removed from it before, but not killed. May also still need the doctor for another related stunt. My first thought is the time lords of course, since he's the one who banned them, they've already tried to get back, and the silents are obviously building/growing a TARDIS. Hopefully not, but I guess I'm just trusting Moffat to write something a little more surprising than that.

[–]Eldi13Dalek 1 point2 points ago

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That's a good point. When River and Rory saw them they seemed to forget them immediately, but Amy distinctly remembered that she needed to tell the Doctor something. Though to be fair, she was the only one they talked to, so that would've had to leave a bigger impression.

[–]scarlettenoirTennant 4 points5 points ago

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She also remembered seeing it previously, where as poor Joy demonstrated, that is not the case for everyone.

[–]eaturbrainzSilence 0 points1 point ago

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Joy's memory caught up with her; it just took a minute.

[–]scarlettenoirTennant 0 points1 point ago

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Not exactly, Joy remembered repeating herself, but she did not remember what was causing her to repeat herself.

[–]abaddon3kPertwee 0 points1 point ago

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Was going to say that. No one else has had prolonged exposure like Amy has (that we've seen).

[–]Eldi13Dalek 0 points1 point ago

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Aha, another excellent observation I forgot to mention! _^

[–]FlintsDoorknob 0 points1 point ago

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You are right. The doctor's advice to, 'look out of the corner of your eye' and all the recurring themes of perception point to this.

[–]eridiusTennant 0 points1 point ago

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She's also good at forgetting things she should have remembered, like the Daleks invading Earth.

[–]Atman00 11 points12 points ago

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She forgot that because it never happened. That was one of the consequences of the cracks in the universe. The Doctor could still remember it fine, so he had no idea everyone else forgot.

That was always my interpretation, anyway.

[–]greensalt 3 points4 points ago

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He's also traveled in time so much that changes in time have barely any effect on his memory anymore. I remember him mentioning the effect to Martha a few seasons ago.

[–]eridiusTennant 0 points1 point ago

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That's along the same lines I was thinking, but I don't recall that as ever actually being established as fact.

[–]JeddHampton 0 points1 point ago

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He can't. In the preview, he admitted to not being able to recall what they looked like.

[–]LyssaPearlTARDIS 0 points1 point ago

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The Doctor's hand did touch the control panel. He commanded Craig to touch it and think about why he wanted to stay where he was. When he touched the control and fessed up that it was because of his lady friend, the Doctor was released.

[–]Atman00 8 points9 points ago

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Pretty sure his hand was being pulledtowards the control panel, but hadn't hit it yet.

I distinctly remember a line like "If my hand touches that panel, it won't just destroy the planet, it'll destroy the whole solar system!"

[–]MarowakTARDIS 5 points6 points ago

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I just watched The Lodger, I believe that Atman00 is correct.

[–]Bhang 7 points8 points ago

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Or how about when the doctor questions river song. "Just who did you kill?" I'm thinking that it is river song who has killed the doctor. The space-suit is a bit of a throwback to the library episode in season (3/4) which river song was in (or they just like space suits) I also noticed that both Amy Pond and River song experienced nausia, which leads me to believe that both are pregnant. Could the Doctor have another child on the way? If so what are the stipulations of a half human/timelord.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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It depends exactly who she is. If she is the Doctor's wife, that's a pretty big deal and a big point of character tension. Trying to understand why she did it is a very interesting arc in and of itself.

[–]gmaskew 1 point2 points ago

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She did say she was in prison for killing "a great man, the greatest man I have ever known". If not the Doctor then who else? Who would she consider greater than him?

[–]IrritableGourmet 3 points4 points ago

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Rory. Technically older than the Doctor, endlessly loyal, made of plastic.

[–]shad0w_walker 0 points1 point ago

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He's not made of plastic anymore. Flesh and blood again. That whole timeline never happened after the Big Bang 2. He just remembers it now.

[–]greensalt 0 points1 point ago

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Is he still made of plastic or did that change after reality got reset?

[–]IrritableGourmet 1 point2 points ago

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He appears to be human again, but still remembers the plasticky bits.

[–]MidnightCommando 0 points1 point ago

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[–]kaosjester 0 points1 point ago

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Her son?

[–]cole1114 4 points5 points ago

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I don't know. I don't think so. River made it sound as if she's going the opposite path of the Doctor, so each time she sees him it's in his past and her present. So after each meeting with the doctor, she uses their synced diaries to go back (or forward) in time to meet the younger doctor there. Eventually, the doctor will meet her for the first time, and she'll do something to him then. Killing the Doctor's oldest form would go against that.

[–]eridiusTennant 4 points5 points ago

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She's not plotting their intersections. They're syncing up with the diaries to figure out where the other is in their timeline. But they're avoiding giving spoilers, and spoilers would be required for River to know where to go next if she was trying to plan her meetings.

[–]cole1114 0 points1 point ago

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She can time travel, so she could probably learn enough about what happens based on any clues he gives. Or maybe there will be some as-of-yet-unrevealed plot device to make this a possibility, like there being something allowing River Song to not destroy the universe by talking to herself in the past/future.

[–]Drakonisch 4 points5 points ago

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He already met her for the first time during Tennant's reign. Season 4 episode 9 - Silence in the Library. Which is, in fact, the moment that River is alluding to when talking to Rory.

[–]pieq3dot14Tom Baker 3 points4 points ago

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The doctor already met her for the first time in the library.

[–]cole1114 0 points1 point ago

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Right, but she hasn't gotten there yet. That's what it sounded like she was saying to me. She knows him more every time, and he knows her less. When she first meets him, she's at her oldest seen so far. She has to pretend she's never met him before in her life. Or maybe that was the real first time she met him, and what happened to make her a time traveler happened later. Or maybe I don't watch the show enough to understand their concept of time travel.

[–]R0CKER1220 7 points8 points ago*

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When they meet in the Library, it's The Doctor's first time meeting River and River's last time meeting The Doctor. As the show progresses, The Doctor knows River more and River knows The Doctor less. When she was talking to Rory as she picked the lock to the faux-TARDIS, she told him that when she was younger she met The Doctor and he knew everything about her and she fell in love with him and she speculated that when she meets The Doctor and he doesn't know her, it's going to kill her which is what happens at the end of Silence in the Library because she knew everything about The Doctor and he had no idea who she was. It must have tore her up emotionally to not be remembered by the man she loves. So we haven't seen when River first meets The Doctor.

[–]kaosjester 5 points6 points ago

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[–]cole1114 3 points4 points ago

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That's it! That's what I was trying to say! Thank you so much!

[–]poteland 1 point2 points ago

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Also, ironically, she dies in that episode.

[–]insllvn 1 point2 points ago

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You've gotten quite mixed up. River is going one way down a street and the doctor is going the other way, except the street is time. The first time he meets her, she know everything she will ever know about him and he knows nothing about her. This occurs in Silence in the Library. When she meets him for the first time, it is the reverse. He knows everything about here and she doesn't know him at all. This is the most likely time for her to kill him. That would make the maybe River in the astronaut suit the youngest River meeting the oldest Doctor at the moment of the Doctor's death.

[–]ronsturgill 1 point2 points ago

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Except it's not straight. Some times there are brief jaunts back past places they have already been and short skips forward past where they'll be.

[–]insllvn 1 point2 points ago

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Before meeting 909 year old Doctor after watching 1103 year old Doctor die, can you give me an example? It seems to me that on each occasion when he meets her, she makes reference to the next occasion (eg. I'll see you again when the Pandorica opens). Their meetings up until this most recent episode have all been in order on screen. In the scene when River and the Doctor compare diaries, I think this might be taken to indicate that things have gotten wibbly-wobbly off-screen, but it could also be each determining where in the chronology of things they each were without giving the other spoilers. I think that this is the beginning of something new. If I knew I was going to die, and it sure seemed like the Doctor had an inkling, and I could travel in time and space I would gather together my closest friends and alert my past self to the requisite facts meaning to set in motion a new chain of events. If old, dead Doctor indeed wrote those invitations, he did so with a plan. As that plan unfolds, beginning with them meeting up in the 50's diner, the re-writing of history begins.

[–]ronsturgill 0 points1 point ago

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If their timelines were straight lines they wouldn't need to compare, they'd recall the last time they both saw each other and know where they were. They are wibbly wobbly indeed.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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agreed, but doesnt this mean she can't be the astronaut? she had a whole thing about the first conversation they had, him knowing everything bad about her and what that did to her. therefore the astronaut killing the doctor cant have been river's first meeting with the doctor, meaning that the astronaut can't be river. no?

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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It could be that when she said all that to Rory she edited out that at some point she killed him on a beach while wearing an astronaut suit or it could be that the whole suggestion of her killing the Doctor is a long and drawn out red herring.

OK, here is an argument against: In her first appearance (from the Doctor's and the viewer's perspective) River sacrifices herself to save a bunch of people and so she can go in the Doctor's place. She implies, as she does so, that he forgave her for her crimes because he always knew her first as the woman who would give her life in the library. He could not know about her killing him, since it would be the most future point in his time stream. Unless, of course, he does work it out, which he will have to in order to avert it. Unless he never reverts it because it had to happen. Wibbly-Wobbly and so forth.

[–]cole1114 0 points1 point ago

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R0CKER1220 got what I was saying perfectly.

[–]insllvn 0 points1 point ago

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You typed these words:

When she first meets him, she's at her oldest seen so far.

Your intention may have been to express that she would be at her oldest point (just before her death) when she meets the doctor in the library and he does not know her. It is incorrect to to say that this is when she first meets him. It is when he meets her for the first time, ie the Doctor does not know River, has never met her before, but she has already known him her whole life. The first time he will meet her, he will know everything about her but she will be meeting him for the first time. My point about the syntax is that it makes no sense to say she met him for the first time about The Silence in the Library, but it is inarguably true that he had just met her for the first time.

[–]cole1114 1 point2 points ago

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Yeah, I wrote it wrong. I wasn't trying to say that was the first time she met the doctor, I was trying to say that it was the first time the doctor met her. I just worded it really badly.

[–]insllvn 1 point2 points ago

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Talking about time travel gets tricky on the quick... ie?

[–]Bhang 0 points1 point ago

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Yes but wasn't the girl in the space suit just a little girl. Would that not make sense that she's younger than he'll ever know her and might not have any meeting with her up until a later point in her life. Similar to that of him and Amy pond.

[–]cole1114 0 points1 point ago

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According to her, at least based on what's been said so far, no. She met him when he was older and she was younger, and he met her when she was older and he was younger.

[–]Bhang 1 point2 points ago

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Right. My mistake

[–]arbitus 5 points6 points ago

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Think about what it feels like to be absolutely terrified. Its a visceral reaction that floods your body with all kinds of hormones, the bottom drops out of your stomach, you can't breathe, then you want to run for your life.

So if all of that happens to you for no reason whatsoever while you're reading the morning paper and having your bowl of cereal, how would you feel? You'd probably decide you were just feeling a bit under the weather, and just wait for it to pass.

[–]GeorgeMTO 0 points1 point ago

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half human/timelord? Well one is The Doctor (according to the Master in the telemovie)

[–]trekkie00Silence 0 points1 point ago

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"Must it always end this way? You, me, and handcuffs." From the Vasta Nerada two-parter at the end.

No handcuffs? Not River. Or not dead Doctor.

[–]Lord_Illidan 0 points1 point ago

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That was from the Flesh and Stone ending in Season 5.

[–]trekkie00Silence 0 points1 point ago

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Whoops, my mistake.

[–]toastydoc 2 points3 points ago*

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I am not going to use a spoiler tag here because this whole thread is just that.

The 1200 y/o Doctor was killed by... wait for it, The Doctor. More accurately the 900 y/o Doctor who after all is said and done in the next episode will figure out that the Silent is around, has a TARDIS, needs a time-lord, and won't take no for an answer. We know that the Silent was at the lake when the Doctor was shot. We know that the Doctor will use his companions emotions to sell a scene. The Silent had to buy the death, see the body burning, and that no time-lord meant no TARDIS and probably the end of that species (didn't it look like the Silent was sick and dying in the tunnels?).

So Who is the little girl in the suit? Not Amy's baby ( I doubt she really is pregnant), Not a young river, not anything but a rouge Silent who had to figure out a way to communicate with someone and have them remember them. Basically its a Silent in the suit, projecting the image and sound of a child. This factors into the MIB Silent witnessing the Doctor's murder. He knows who the Rouge Silent is and seeing his own murder their last hope is the final nail in the coffin... ahem, I mean TARDIS.

This is leading to the Doctor having to figure out a date for his future self to make the sacrifice, dawning a space suit (foreshadowed when he put it on his head last episode), parking the TARDIS underwater, opening the door, walking to shore, shooting the Future Doctor, absorbing future Doctors regeneration energy (and therefor his memories?), and selling the scene to the Silent who can shrivel up and die once and for all.

The end, onto the third episode.

Update I hadn't seen the trailer for next weeks yet. Now that I have my hypothesis fits even better.

"We are not fighting an invasion here, we are leading a revolution"

Rouge Silent + Revolution = Silent Civil War.
It fits. I also think that there is a very good chance in the next episode Rory will die and we will see a very powerful love triangle between Amy, River, and the Doctor this season

[–]BXCellent[S] 1 point2 points ago*

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Not bad, fits in well with my overall theory. The little girl could be a hologram, as per the Lodger. A communication device designed to be irresistible to humans. Used by the rogue (your type of rouge has me think of a Silent with way too much make up and cracks me up) Silent.

The only down side is that it would still saddle the BBC with MS until her is 200 years older, and then the series would have to end. They need another out, something that allows the older doctor to either come back (a la the master) or rewrite the actual death in a (fan) believable timey wimey fashion. I can't work this bit out...

EDIT: AND, if the little girl is a communications hologram, that would explain her not being affected by the bullet and having the pissed off look as seen in the trailer. Come to think of it, the whole "help me" / save me from the space man thing is very much like the calls for help in the Lodger.

[–]toastydoc 0 points1 point ago

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Yup, but the older doctor being absorbed by the younger doctor creates a paradox and undoes everything the older doctor did but still shows the pizza doh heads that the Doctor is gone.

[–]TimeForSnacksTARDIS 2 points3 points ago

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But in "the Lodger" the doctor said that if he touched that panel to give the fake TARDIS the energy it needs it would backfire and destroy the world, right? So who's to say the silents haven't found a new way to power it?

[–]bromfHartnell 2 points3 points ago

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I propose a new radical theory. We know Rassalon wanted to make the timelords become beings of conciousness alone. Say this allows them to break the timelock, then on the other side they go and find the tech to reassemble into bodies, but it fails giving them the bodies of the silence. They find the Master's old TARDIS from classic who, but time has caused disrepair in his absance. This is the machine in the loger episode, it retains the ability to travel in space and uses hashed time travel mechanics stolen from Darleks or the wristband River uses. They use this to, over years, make it to Earth as it is a known haunt of the Doctor's. By enginering situations they can get the doctor to reactivate it for thier use, allowing them to reform their bodies by traveling to the correct time/place. To stay underwraps they use timelord physic powers to blot themselves from peoples memories, these are retained from having timelord concesness. <The doctor did it to Donor, but he sucks balls at it, compared to other timelords, like say the master, who was infamous for his skill>.

The astronaut is the master, he disapeared in the christmas specail, he also has been known to survie hidious deformation <See The Deadly Assassin, Tom Baker Years>. So he uses the spacesuit to hide this. Getting him to the right year is the problem, he is not the little girl astronaut from '69, but is immatating her in 2011, one year on from his duel with Rassalon. His motives are against the timelords for what they did to him, and so sides with the doctor to prevent this, with a plan to capture his half baked TARDIS and reactivate it.

Amy is not pregnant, deal with it. River is not a child in the suit in '69, when she first meets the doctor she is taken to the singing mountains, and the doctor would not take a child on the TARDIS for adventures, the TARDIS is a strick 18+ ride, for the most part.

How does the doctor get around dieing? Clone maybe, but I like the idea that he just rewrites time, and they use the old "Paradox's are easy because I am the Doctor" thereby avoiding reprocutions.

Side note, episode seven is called "A Good Man Goes to War" and the caption shot revealed is Rory confronting Cybermen. Second side note is, this; http://omfgerbear.tumblr.com/post/4512796851/sightings-of-the-silence-or-indications-of-their was kindly posted yesterday by a user, I forget who, and bugger me it is right, even the bit about cloacked figures behnid the sarcofoguses. Every time thoughout the 5th season the doctor looked puzzled then fixed his gaze he saw and forgot the Silence. These things were about a 1 on the scarometer <ranges from one to ten, one being lowest ten being highest> till the moment I understood that I saw evidence of the silence in 13 episodes and the charecters did nothing about it, and so what chance would I have.

TL;DR - Timelords are the silence and you should check out the link.

[–]adamant2009Eccleston 2 points3 points ago

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Something that a lot of people are glossing over is a specific line from the next episode -- "We're not fighting an alien invasion, we're leading a revolution."

To me, this implies that the Silence are definitely a threat. Not only a threat -- River said the tunnels had been there for a long time. This revolution is against a race that has been subtlely influencing the American government, if not the governments of the world, for some time. The Saturnynians saw them beyond the crack, as did others (I can only remember them specifically for the time being), so they don't seem to belong, but they've been here a very long time. They took control of the TARDIS, for goodness' sake, so they're capable of some feats. So it comes down to fighting off a threat that you forget as soon as you turn away, a threat that all of the races of all of the systems in the universe may have been fighting for aeons without even realizing it. This seems to me a fairly good reason why the Feds seem to be chasing Rory as well -- the Silence have been manipulating silently for a very, very long time, and the Doctor and his Companions pose a fair threat. Whether they're a malevolent force or not, however, is yet to be determined. They certainly have the full capabilities at their disposal to be incredibly dangerous and incredibly powerful. So we'll see how that pans out.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the only way that the Companions can deal with the Silence is to tally themselves every time they see one. People have tried comparing the tallies to the writing in "The Impossible Planet", but I think in this case the simplest explanation suits it. They're counting the number of times they've seen them.

I'm not sure what to think about the astronaut. Either she's not in control of the suit or the suit is manipulating her, that's my guess. Hard to say.

My concern is this -- How in Hell did the Doctor grow a beard when held in captivity by the government? How long must that mean he's been kept there? His current body doesn't seem the type to grow a beard in a week or two, you know?

CRAZY SPECULATION AT HAND: We're told that the deal with River is supposed to be resolved in this season. I'm not convinced that the first astronaut we see is the little girl. Going back to my earlier thought -- if the suit is somehow manipulating the user, maybe somehow the girl gets saved, but at a cost. River has to wear the suit. And in doing so, she has to kill the Doctor. We've all at least speculated that River kills the Doctor, so perhaps that's it. That's what sends her to prison, even though she had no control over her actions, and thus she killed the Doctor (speculation as to whether or not he actually died permanently aside) toward the end of her timeline but at the VERY end of his. I say it like that because, for the most part, they're traveling in opposite directions, but in the case of the 1100-year-old Doctor they're not. It's something that he had to do, dangerous though it was to interact with his own timeline, for whatever it may have been that needed to be accomplished to be so. At this point I'm getting somewhat brain-damaged, and this is getting long-winded, so I'll stop. But there's my speculation for the week.

[–]RedDyeNumber4Tennant 6 points7 points ago

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Moffat has a staff meeting his first day doing Doctor Who.

"Doctor who is supposed to be a story about a time traveler, but we've established a lot of canon and world history can be difficult to interweave, plus, like I said, we've established a LOT of canon. We're practically running out of historical figures."

"Well we've got space stories too!"

"Space stories are expensive. Also, lots of our own stories we don't want to retcon. So here's the idea....

A bad guy that makes you forget!"

"..."

"So we introduce these new bad guys who have always been around, but they make you forget stuff. Then we do all our stories without worrying about whether it conflicts with anything in the last half century."

"That's ridiculous and implausible."

"It gets better. His companion is a girl who has lived her whole life being subtly affected by the forget-o-rays and to compensate she becomes 'the girl who remembered.' Her remembering powers save the doctor from all the forgetting while giving her a slightly askew mentality. I'm thinking we go for hot without the drama and she's a little naughty because y'know, childhood issues."

"..."

"How naughty."

Moffat leans forward

"As naughty as we can get away with on a BBC family show."

DOCTOR WHO.

[–]bromfHartnell 1 point2 points ago

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Your wild card crazy speculation could work out if this is the penultimate time in River's timeline. If she ends up having to wear that suit, then her next moment she meets the doctor after this is in the libaray then she is already in a spacesuit. But personally I have other ideas, and this is wild and almost certainly wrong

[–]Mo0man 0 points1 point ago

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It can't be young river who kills the doctor, because old river doesn't remember it

[–]adamant2009Eccleston 3 points4 points ago

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River doesn't tell us anything about herself, so I'm disinclined to believe that. We don't know what she remembers. Spoilers, and all that.

[–]Mo0man 1 point2 points ago

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At the very least, she seemed surprised when the Doctor was shot. How much of it was acting, I don't know. I mean, she might one day still kill the doctor, in her past. But she was probably not the one who killed the doctor in this particular instance (ie the time after the picnic next to the lake), as she didn't seem to remember this particular set of circumstances

[–]abaddon3kPertwee 0 points1 point ago

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Thank you! I've been thinking this every time I read someone posting that River is the astronaut.

[–]Icouldbeanyone 2 points3 points ago

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Only thing that got me in the episode was the hub / room / whatever River and Rory went into. It looked just like the "fake upstairs room" from that awesome episode I can't remember when the Doctor was the new roommate.

[–]Vitalstatistix 3 points4 points ago

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"The Lodger". Yes, they're the same. Everyone's best guess is that the Silence are/were trying to build some sort of TARDIS.

[–]Findibulator 1 point2 points ago

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A TARDIS needs to be "primed" by a Time Lord to be operational. Rassilon Impromteur or something like that. So they very well may need the Doctor to prime theirs before it can be fully operational. ....but it seemed to be operational in The Lodger... Maybe it can travel, but not through time as-is?

[–]randomsnark 0 points1 point ago

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http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Rassilon_Imprimatur

Yup. Good point, I hadn't heard about this. As to it being operational, that article suggests the imprimatur is only necessary to travel safely. Could be it's only able to make unstable jumps for now.

[–]LucidPrayer 0 points1 point ago

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THE FANS ARE HALF THE REASON I LOVE DR WHO!

[–]randomsnark 1 point2 points ago

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just so you know, it's (/spoiler).

[–]3rdm4n 0 points1 point ago

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Moffat said in Confidential that the doctor was dead and not coming back after being killed by the astronaut.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]randomsnark 0 points1 point ago

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It's Matt Smith.

[–]dismywhoaccount -1 points0 points ago

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I really approve of a lot of this. The only point I modify is the staging of the Doctor's death. We all know there is clone Doctor, and we have absolutely no idea what's going on with that. Now, this might be partly because I really don't want the Doctor to actually be dead and the series to be over, but I'm leaning towards the clone being the one that was killed (hence, "staging his own death"), which would further add more sense to the Doctor inviting himself to his own funeral. As in, he wasn't inviting himself, he was inviting the person he was cloned form. Who would a clone trust more than his parent DNA?

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]poteland 1 point2 points ago

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Actually there is, but it's in another universe, right now living with Rose Tyler.

But there's a problem with that: The "other" Doctor - a clone of Tennant - is partially a human, he doesn't have two hearts, he will age and die, and cannot regenerate. When the Doctor gets shot - or whatever that green light is - he clearly starts to regenerate, and is "shot" again while on that process, that alone convinces me that that Doctor is out of the question, and also that in Series 5 they basically rebooted all of the Doctor's aquaintances, so I don't think they'll go back to that story now.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–]poteland 0 points1 point ago

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Supposedly he is cloned from Tennant's hand, I don't remember exactly what happened that some human DNA "got in the middle", as absurd as that might be. But my point is that the previous poster was referring to that Doctor "clone", not the same Doctor on a different timeline.

[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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agreed. its possible for the doctor to be cloned, but the only ones we know about either look like tennant and live in an alternate reality, or are female and call themselves his daughter (correct if wrong about daughter being a clone)

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]jrae316 0 points1 point ago

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awesome. thanks for the clarification - i knew there was something funky about them both. either way though: we don't know that there's a doctor clone who looks like Smith, though that doesn't mean there isn't

[–]jax9999 0 points1 point ago

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Rose Married the clone doctor.

[–]greensalt 0 points1 point ago

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There is the part-human doctor in the parrallel universe. There is also the female clone of the doctor, Jenny, running around somewhere that we haven't seen. There might also be other versions of him from the older series that I don't remember.

However, the Doctor we saw killed in the latest episode and the younger version of him we met in the same episode are, most likely, the same person. At least, they appear to be the same person from our perspective.

[–]mordecaidrake -1 points0 points ago

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That's very likely and a good theory. As they're trying to build a TARDIS they will need The Doctor to pilot it, that or River(potentially). My guess is their plan is to go back in time where the Earth wasn't inhabited by humans and unsure they don't take over the planet. Based of the most recent trailer for the next episode, the Doctor says they're leading a revolution, so who knows! Nothing is definitive in Whoverse, wibbly wobbly timey whimy.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Apparently they already can do that, though. As noted above, the 1969 alien seemed to know about the death of the Doctor in 2011. Also the tunnels seem to have been there for centuries, but River's description was vague enough that they could have been there longer than humans have.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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Apparently they already can do that, though. As noted above, the 1969 alien seemed to know about the death of the Doctor in 2011. Also the tunnels seem to have been there for centuries, but River's description was vague enough that they could have been there longer than humans have.

[–]jebiv 0 points1 point ago

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As noted above, the 1969 alien seemed to know about the death of the Doctor in 2011.

What if they are more psychic than time traveller? They seemed to know other things they shouldn't, and they definitely mess with peoples' minds.